I've been telling Deadoralive since the end of WWII that he needs to read both sides and he refuses.

Finally, a story spun as hard in the other direction!
You're right, Mrs. OG, I just can't get past that for some reason it was Iraq that we needed to invade when there our scores of countries with the same situation, but somehow don't even discuss them. We went there for WMD, er, to punch out terrorism, er, and, uh, free the Iraqi people. So I'm not sure why we're there, neither are a lot of people besides the bleeding hearts who think we need to help make them free people. So why stop with Iraq? I've said it before, there is genocide going on in Sudan right now (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8364-2004Sep9.html), that we are ignoring but, well, we're busy. Actually, we've cut back on humanitarian effort all over because, well, we're busy, and drained, because of Iraq. We're there to stomp out terrorism and free the people in that tiny little spot of sand because it will help all mankind.
I do believe as time goes on there will be more discoveries of things like the Downing Street memos, and we'll learn a lot more about why we really went. This part hasn't even started yet, I believe. And that is why I feel terrible for every soldier that has to go there let alone the ones that come back maimed or dead.
And as OG says, we are there to stomp out the terrorists. Like the ones we've heard about spilling over Iraq's border to join forces. What? huh? I thought all the terrorists were from Iraq? Why aren't we spilling over the borders to stop them? Hmm. Weren't the hijackers all Iraqi's? Osama fer sure is from Iraq, right?
America will stomp out terrorists just as well as we balance our budget, educate our children, control illigal immigration, and control corruption in our own govt. Hell, we couldn't even convict Jackson, twice.

Old Guy, you read both sides and still only talk about yours. You show me yours and I'll show you mine. And Mrs. OG can show both of us hers, HEE!!

At length. You can't get away from the doom-and-gloom of the mainstream press. You can't find the other side unless you actively seek it. You can say the good news is a spin story, but he mentions where he gets his facts. Call 'em. I double dare ya.

I wish you could meet my son DeadorAlive. I'm sure he would love to sit your arse down in proper Military style and educate you! You see he was in Iraq and he's about to go back AGAIN. My nephew is over there on his second tour. I have never ONCE, not ONCE heard them pi$$ and moan, ya hear me, NOT ONCE! Nor will you hear my sister or myself whimper!

Granted we did not find any WMD, we did end up in Iraq via a side road through Iran. Ask a solider who was there how the locals treat them? Ask a solider how much they are appreciated and how much they have done for that country! When you have the opporunity to talk to a soldier that was there, is there, then run with some real news!!

You'd be pissed either way.

I thought all the terrorists were from Iraq?

That's what you get for thinking. Nobody, not even the CIA, Bush, Cheney, Israel, Great Britian, et al, has said - or hinted - at that comment.

It's a breeding ground. It's a training ground. It's the biggest threat in the area.

Don't know if you've ever been in a bar fight, but here's my suggestion, should you ever find yourself in that scenario: knock the shit outta the biggest troublemaker you can find first.

If you believe the press is spinning those stories so hard, why are you using them to try to convince anyone of anything?? And why is it spin now that you've seen there's good being done as well as the bad?

"The forgiving state of mind is a magnetic power for attracting good." -- Catherine Ponder

The one-guy-talking has been good enough up til now, then it turns to spin.

Read this list of some of the success stories and tell me you've known about them from your favorite news source.

Of course there is good in Iraq, and of course some even write about it. Pay close attention to the side bars and the tiny formatting though, because it's usually hidden! Even better, ask a vet, you can rest assured they know where to find the good news and some even write about it!

Check out what Ollie North has to say on the subject http://www.freedomalliance.org/view_article.php?a_id=578

Clip I do know soldiers from Iraq. Probably know 20 guys who were there. Practically every NG unit in a 200 mile radius from me has been or are heading there. Like I said, my brother in law was there. Missed the birth and the first year of his daughters life, after trying everything for years to get pregnant. He said he'd been training for 13 years in engineering, then was retrained in 2 months to take his units throught the streets kicking every can and wrapper to see if they would blow up. He lost 2 in his unit. He said it's a typical third world country, people wake up and have nothing to do, so many of them just cause trouble.
Years back I remember many OG rants about our gov't sticking it's nose in everything. I guess it's fine to invade countries based on a fuzzy list of reasons, but don't come knockin down your door without making damn sure you have all the facts, right?
Fitting analogy on the bar fight, if that were the only way to think of it, but I would say you have to go to the bars to get in barfights.
See, now is that so one-sided?

And Clip, don't give me that "I'm sure he would love to sit your arse down in proper Military style and educate you!" That's as much bullshit as me saying I'd sit his ass down and educate him on living as normally and productively with a liver disease for 30 of 32 years and having most people who know me have no idea because I don't advertise it. I respect our military guys and gals, but I don't play favorites. It's their career choice just as it was to be mine. But I won't be talked down to by them, you, or anyone. You should see how mad the rich guys get that come to my shop when I don't treat them better. We're all *just* human beings, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm sorry your brother in law missed the birth of his child, but he signed up for the job! For God and Country , In Peace and in War! I dropped my 6 week old baby and year old son at the sitters, to not see them again for 2 months! Why? Because it was my job to be a solider first and a mommy second!

If they had terrorists in my town, and they thought they might be in my house.........kick the door down, drag me out for my own safety!!

Like it or not DeadorAlive we are there, for what ever smoke screen reason you seem to beleive we went there! This time we arn't walking away till we do what we said we were going to do!

He said it's a typical third world country, people wake up and have nothing to do, so many of them just cause trouble.

Sounds like America almost, except your writing sounds like you'd qualify as a mainstream reporter. Let's review: it's not "people wake up and have nothing to do, so many of them just cause trouble. That's stereotyping based on, apparently, your perceptions, or worse yet, your hopes for Iraq. They're not third world, they even have modern appliances, TV, and statistically they're better educated than you and I. That, despite the opinion of your bro-in-law, is a fact. Try using facts instead of soundbites and this'll be easier for you to "get your head around", so to speak.

What you meant to say was "some of the people wake up and have nothing to do, so some of them just cause trouble." Otherwise, you're lumping all Iraq, and her peoples, into the troublemaker category. It's still bullshit, and it's still a cheap shot. I realize it's not a distinction you're willing to admit, but we can do this for years. My kids don't get away slandering for long, and you won't either. Joe and Jane Iraq - the majority - are no different than you or I, and they wouldn't vote Hussein back in power for all the tea in China. They want freedom, they line up in droves to join THEIR military. Your arguments otherwise indicate a clear refusal to face the truth, and your refusal to accept that, good, bad or ugly, is elitist. They're fighting for it, you're not. Cheer them on. Pray for them. Send them candy bars, or greeting cards, or something, but for God's sake, stop the handwringing and the non-stop "one guy at the Baghdad 7-11 said it's all shit so it has to be true" syndrome.

Years back I remember many OG rants about our gov't sticking it's nose in everything.

Heh be real careful before you quote me. I've got every email sent to, or received by me since 1992 backed up on CD-ROM. I can assure you my story has not changed one iota, and it's this, which I shall, once again, repeat so you can nail it in a convenient place:

The business of the United States government is to protect the borders, and to settle disputes between the states.

We've been attacked by some Middle Easterners many times over the years. The one that got 'em in deep poo with us was when they crossed our borders to do it. Until then, we just mopped up the mess and hoped it got better. The keyword here is borders. I don't want 'em coming over here. Hopefully you don't either. They wanted a dog in that fight so we delivered it. We didn't nuke the entire Middle East like some wanted. We're over there doing the best we can in a shitty situation that wasn't triggered by us in the first place. So far, I'm right. The trouble with your analogies and reasoning and sources is maybe you hoped they'd all greet us with open arms, terrorists included, we'd all sit around and sing "Kumbaya my Lord" and Walt Disney would be defrosted. Sorry for your delusions, but nobody said that. Ever.

Probably know 20 guys who were there. I've talked to twice that many in a single sitting when I was driving over the road. Never heard a single whine from them either. They had a better mastery of American and World History than you, apparently. Every time we step outside our borders, whether because we've been attacked or not, we have, for the most part, had a favorable impact on the world's condition. Yes, you can keep whining about "look at ..." examples, but you're missing the main thing I'm saying over and over: most of the time it's worked. Never said all. Never said there'd be a guarantee this time either. Never said it'd be over in 30 minutes, not including commercials.

I guess it's fine to invade countries based on a fuzzy list of reasons, but don't come knockin down your door without making damn sure you have all the facts, right?

Sorta. You're close. But it wasn't a fuzzy list. It was pretty specific list. I pointed you to a speech which you obviously didn't read. In it were listed the reasons we couldn't ignore them anymore. I'll bet cash money that plenty of your Third World Iraqis read it too, because I've taken time to read their blogs, newspapers, etc. You haven't bothered. And won't.

About the government breaking down my door, if they have reasonable suspicion that I've done something to break down my door, they will. If I've done something to have my door broken down, then I deserve it. That's why we never broke down Iraq's door before now. If the cops show up here with a search warrant - like the U.N. did to Hussein - and I don't invite them in - just like Hussein didn't - they're coming in anyway, eventually. If I had done those things, you'd be calling me a nutcase on here. But you're not willing to go that far about Hussein.

Fitting analogy on the bar fight, if that were the only way to think of it, but I would say you have to go to the bars to get in barfights.

Yup, you're exactly right. See? This objective thinking therapy is doing you good. Now, take the next step. Think from the other side of the coin. Am I allowed to go to a bar? Yes. Are troublemakers required to bother me when I'm in a bar? No. Therefore, any reasonable person would conclude that it's also true that going to the bar isn't the problem, but there may be people in the bar that are a problem. That's different. I can, given half or one-tenth of a chance, get along with any human alive in any bar on this or any other planet. I don't care what race, religion, creed, social status, monetary status, whether they're from an alleged third world country, or any other false bullshit of an excuse most chickenshits base their fears on, that person has the right to be left alone, if not respected, by me. And I give them that. Most of them give me that too.

But I've met that nutcase in the bar too. The last time was probably 20 or more years ago, which is why I say the majority of people are good. I don't know why he hated me. Odds are, he didn't either, but he had to find a reason. If it wasn't that I talked to the female bartender, who happened to be the girlfriend of the nutcase's third cousin's best friend's next door neighbor's gardener - which it wasn't, by the way - it was going to be about my hat, or my lack of a hat, or my hair, or the fact that I made the mistake of smiling and the nutcase thought I was smiling about him, or he didn't like the way I leaned against the bar, or a million other reasons.

See, the nutcase was pissed before he ever knew I existed. If he didn't hate me for any of the above reasons, then he was going to hate me because I was an exact clone of him. He was gonna whip somebody's ass real good before the night was over because he was, when you reduce him to one sentence, a hate-filled chickenshit.

Could we have coexisted in the bar? Sure. It was his call. I didn't want to mess with him. He was bigger, looked meaner, obviously had a beef, and wasn't there just to have a good time. If he was, he would have smiled at me the first time he spoke. Instead, he pushed me from behind. It was all I could do to stay on my feet, and I was stone cold sober. When I turned around to see what had happened, it was like staring into an optical illusion. I couldn't believe he'd actually walked through a door to get in the place. I thought they'd built the walls around him. He looked like a refrigerator with a head and two arms, each of which could've almost fit into the waist of my pants.

Know what he was mad about? Glad you asked. I got in line for a beer before he did. I guarantee you he wasn't in sight when I got in line. I would've noticed Refrigerator Perry standing there. So I tried the John Kerry approach: I kissed his ass. Told him I didn't mean to, told him I was sorry, offered to buy him a beer, but stopped short of begging for my life. I knew it was going to get ugly because it was his choice, and he'd made his decision: he was very pissed off at me, and I was going to get my ass kicked real good. He was right about the first part, but he'd wildly underestimated the second part. He did, however, let me stay in front of him, which was the first part of his undoing. See, the thing he allegedly hated me for wasn't the real reason or he'd never let me stay in front of him. Any excuse to get your dog in the fight.

So I got to the front of the line and the bartender looked at me as if I was already in my coffin. She'd seen it all, along with everybody else, and leaned over to ask if I wanted her to call the police. I said "no, I want two Budweiser's in a can, and DO NOT open them." I think I may have been muttering something about "please, for the love of God, don't open them" but I'm not sure. I was mostly trying to stand up and not pee myself. She told me, without a hint of optimism in her voice, that he did this every weekend, without fail. She assured me half the police force would eventually get handcuffs on him and haul him off to jail. I figured Ryder Truck was making a mint every Saturday night by hauling this guy off to jail.

I got my two cans of Budweiser, turned around to the bar terrorist, and said "ok, fat boy, outside." He was pretty surprised but he got ready to teach me a lesson by ripping his coat and shirt off at high speed. I'll admit that was almost all the lesson I needed, but knew it wouldn't have appeased him enough anyway. People moved their entire tables and seats so we'd have a clear shot to the door. Some people like to see a lunatic die, and they weren't going to slow me down. Dancers stopped dancing. Sitters stopped sitting. Crickets in five states stopped cricketing. I maintained my bladder.

Dumb mistake #2 on his part was letting me go out the door first. You see, that gave me home field advantage. I picked the battleground. When I turned around, he was coming out the door. I had my foot firmly planted on the sidewalk, and he was just finishing up squeezing himself out the door. When he realized he was going to meet Mr. Budweiser in the Mr. Forehead area at about 100 miles an hour, and also realized that it was being navigated by a still-connected arm connected to a 140 lb. luncatic, even he had enough processing power to realize it was already over. His 350 lbs. plus weren't going to do him any good. He never met Mr. Budweiser #2. I didn't use my hand for two days. He didn't wear a hat for at least five. People wanted to buy me drinks. One woman offered her sexual prowess to heal my hand, which at twice it's normal size was still half as large as Billy Badass' hand. Apparently her breasts had gigantic, pun intended, healing powers. Even the crickets wanted to buy me a beer. I declined all offers, including the amateur female med student, and left.

See, when you draw a line on the playground, and someone crosses that line, you better be prepared to back it up. Otherwise, they'll just keep crossing that line no matter who it belongs to. Billy Badass had been winning that game for years. He even had the cops scared of him. But Billy Badass had never met Mr. High Speed Budweiser.

It's like the old joke about cutting all the legs off a frog. When you tell him to jump, he can't. It doesn't mean he's deaf. It means he can't jump. Look at the big picture, that's the only way to The Truth. You're not being told the truth by the only people you're willing to listen to. Good Lordie, dude, even the police listen to both sides of a story before they make up their minds.

Way to go Olf Fart ^5. Point and counter point made! Next time Use a Bud and a Miller so you have both sides of the story! Touche`

I figured I'd use the cheap stuff first. Bad beer kills. :)

I had a backup plan. I was gonna run back inside, jump over the bar, and yell "why can't we all just get a longneck!"

That's "Old Fart."

Olf Fart ya can't make me!

Ok, sorry my responses are always late, I don't have a computer at home because I don't want to look back someday and wish I'd spent more time with my wife and kid instead of a computer. Hard sometimes, but worth it.
So, here goes. This is the last time I'll post anything about Bush or Iraq. I'll gleefully agree to disagree and get back to figuring out how to put that new skirting on our trailer.
I HAVE been listening to you OG, despite the fact that you keep telling me to "quit listening to that one guy" who gives his opinion that I then quote, right before you quote Bush, also "one guy". Hell, everything we read is by "one guy/gal", including everything you write, even the O. North story of Mrs. OG's. The Marine and Iraqis I quoted who have *some* experience with the realities of day to day Iraq, should be discounted, but your opinion and Oliver North's should be set in stone. Got it.
Back to the barfight. So if we are in the bar, America would be the biggest guy in the bar, the 350lb. bully, and the terrorists the 140lb. spitfires. Who wins that story again?
I was told by OG to think more with my "head" and not so much with my "heart". Lessee, OG brings up how he gets weepy thinking about our freedoms as Americans and wishes those freedoms to the Iraqi people. I would call that thinking with your "heart". He also brought up "another 9/11" somewhere in his responses. That's "fear", also thinking with your "heart". I'm not afraid of another terrorist attack here, they are historically few and far between, although they are much more likely now that the American hatred is off the charts. Our own criminals scare me worse, and why I lock my doors.
Thinking with my head says the war with Iraq has been entirely political from day one, to get Bush re-elected for a second term, or first, depending on how you count the votes, and for him to see himself as some sort of martyr and his party a bunch of heroes. Now that American support is waning, the Republicans will make DAMN SURE we are pulling out far before the next election to carefully give Americans enough time to start forgetting about it before they cast their ballots.
Thinking with my head says if Gore would have taken office instead of Bush, we would have captured Osama and strung him up by his balls, and called it a day. And freedom for the poor Iraqi people would be the last tiny little speck of thought on any of your minds.
The reason for the happy and grateful Iraqi people in the "good" stories is that their are 135,000 American soldiers walking up and down thier streets to protect them. Let the cameras roll on their faces when we start pulling out and leave them to fend for themselves in the rubble we created. Then the Bush drones will clamor that maybe false hope was still better than no hope, and they'll have to stand up for themselves now.
In your response above you act like *I* ever said or thought it should be a quick and simple thing. I have NEVER wanted this war from the very beginning, period. I never saw the connection between clobbering the group that attacked us and going after an unrelated country. No, OG, as shown on the Daily Show just last night, it was your buddy RUMSFELD who felt that way. The clips of his press conference from before and now. Back then he told the country it could last something like 2 days, 2 weeks, maybe 6 months, but I doubt it. Now: Maybe another 2 -12 years. That's your man, OG. Their idea of knocking out a little country to add to their resumes' blew up in their faces, now they are in a world of shit with no easy way out.
On a related note, sales of Rose colored sunglasses has skyrocketed 620% since sometime in 2002.

I'm sorry about one more, but pertaining to the "good" stories, Jon Stewert said, "But we never hear about the cars in Iraq that don't blow up."

Now that we're getting somewhere, let me comment on the minor ones.

I then quote, right before you quote Bush, also "one guy". Hell, everything we read is by "one guy/gal", including everything you write, even the O. North story of Mrs. OG's. The Marine and Iraqis I quoted who have *some* experience with the realities of day to day Iraq, should be discounted, but your opinion and Oliver North's should be set in stone.

I quote Bush when you say something sarcastic like the "fuzzy reasons we went there" comment. It wasn't fuzzy, so I point you to the transcripts of his speeches. Oliver North's list of successes pointed to his sources, which you can call to verify. I give you credit where credit is due, i.e. Iraq ain't pretty right now. But you REFUSE to do the same for me OR them, which is admit that they're PROGRESSING instead of REGRESSING. AND I ALWAYS POINT TO MY SOURCE.

America would be the biggest guy in the bar, the 350lb. bully, and the terrorists the 140lb. spitfires. Who wins that story again?

Got it backwards again, but you can obviously swing it either way. We were minding our own business, not flying commercial airliners into buildings in the Middle East. The only thing you got out of that story was that the little guy wins. What you missed in that story is that the agressor lost. We weren't the agressor in this situation. We babysat over there for years. The point here, again, is that you're refusing to see a ray of sunshine. So be it, but don't think I won't comment.

I was told by OG to think more with my "head" and not so much with my "heart".

Wrong! Find the post where I said that. What I've said, again, is use both. I "feel" GREATLY with my heart - and never denied it, not once - but I also think with my head.

... now that the American hatred is off the charts

That didn't start on 9/11. You try to imply it and you'll get another lecture.

Thinking with my head says the war with Iraq has been entirely political from day one, to get Bush re-elected for a second term, or first, depending on how you count the votes, and for him to see himself as some sort of martyr and his party a bunch of heroes.

Second term. And I'll teach you again how to tell. Find what election official declared Gore the winner in Florida. I'll save you some time, since you won't bother: it was one of the Big Three TV networks. As soon as they did it, the conspiracy was on! Didn't matter to you that major newspapers and TV stations did their own analysis and declared that Bush had won. All that people like you would say, at most, was that Jeb Bush had to be in on the conspiracy. Did it ever occur to you that maybe some entity did try to make it appear there was a stolen election attempt there, but maybe - try thinking from the other side - maybe it was the Democrats who knew they'd lost but knew you and other Democrats would go ape because Bush's brother was the governor of Florida? Not once were you willing to look at that possibility. At least I can look at both sides and trust neither. You're willing to sell out wholesale, no analysis involved. And certainly no evidence. Do you even realize they changed the laws on how the media can report an election's progress because the media fucked that up so bad? Whichever news magazine it was that did the story on the Mythical Exploding Chevy Pickups knows how this works: sometimes, when there ain't no story, you drop a model rocket engine in the fuel tank and watch the show begin. The same fiction writers said Gore won Florida. Simple shit stirring.

Now that American support is waning,

Says you. Americans have the attention span of ferrets on a double espresso.

the Republicans will make DAMN SURE we are pulling out far before the next election to carefully give Americans enough time to start forgetting about it before they cast their ballots.

I'll take that bet for $1,000 in the currency of your choosing. And I'm dead serious here. We may pull some soldiers out, but I'll guarantee you it won't be finished by any means before the next election. Try to sway me with rhetoric and see where it gets ya. History repeats itself. We're still in other countries, regardless of upcoming elections.

Here's my offer: I think you're talking shit without thinking about what your mouth is doing. You're writing checks on a political party that you hate, without a shred of evidence that you can cash that check. Therefore, I'm serious about that $1,000 bet. Want to go for it? Come on, I want the money! If you're so sure, let's do it. But either way, I want an answer.

Thinking with my head says if Gore would have taken office instead of Bush, we would have captured Osama and strung him up by his balls, and called it a day.

Gore The Fugitive Hunter? Sorry, but no. Same guys chasing Osama, regardless of which party is in power. Obvious bias on your part, not a shred of "and here's why" logic, just the same old tune. The last time you said we'd forgotten him he'd been in the news that day. THIS time, same deal. Ever lose your keys in your house? Why'd it take so long to find them? Because it's a relatively big place, and they refused to come out with their hands up! Find a non-political site on the net, and learn about fugitive hunting. A fugutive that's bright and doesn't want to get caught is hard to catch. In other words, this ain't fuckin' CSI.

And freedom for the poor Iraqi people would be the last tiny little speck of thought on any of your minds.

Yours maybe, but not mine. I'm still pissed at the U.N. for not wanting Hussein's head on a platter 14 years ago. And I'm STILL pissed at Bush Sr. for not going it alone.

I never saw the connection between clobbering the group that attacked us and going after an unrelated country.

You never saw the connection because you've never researched other than not wanting a war. I didn't want it either, but after researching alot, I knew my heart (which was hoping they weren't related) was wrong, and my head (which realized they were related) were in conflict. Here's the nicest way I can boot you in the head to jar the gears loose: if they were wrong about terrorism in Iraq, WHAT THE FUCK ARE ALL THE AL-QAEDA TERRORISTS DOING THERE?

For those too ADHD-riddled to follow along on the last train of thought, here's the condensed version:

I never saw the connection between clobbering the group that attacked us and going after an unrelated country.

Then WHAT THE FUCK ARE ALL THE AL-QAEDA TERRORISTS DOING THERE?

No, OG, as shown on the Daily Show just last night, it was your buddy RUMSFELD who felt that way.

HEE! That icon of news accuracy, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. I never realized it was serious, I thought Stewart was mostly joking. Sort of like Dennis Miller, but Miller would actually forget the jokes and invite both sides to talk it over. Here's your survey question for the day: how much CNN or Fox News did you watch yesterday? Did you actually look up transcripts from Rumsfeld? Naah. Too much work, it's easier to just rant. And don't call Rumsfeld my buddy. He's not. He's also not my bitter enemy like he is to you. Same story with him: if he "predicted" the sun was coming up tomorrow, I'd go look for myself. I don't subscribe to predictions. If he said we'd be out of Iraq in ten minutes or two years, he was wrong, and ANYBODY who thought otherwise is obviously nuts, and lacking the basics in American History. If we said we'd defeat the Iraqi Military in ten minutes or two years, he was right. What was it, ten weeks or something like that? Where you lose me is the vagueness in your fingerpointing. Back then he told the country it could last something like 2 days, 2 weeks, maybe 6 months but which "it" is "it"? Now: Maybe another 2 -12 years. For what? WHAT SPECIFICALLY? You won't say. Never have. Won't even point to a transcript.

That's your man, OG. Their idea of knocking out a little country to add to their resumes' blew up in their faces, now they are in a world of shit with no easy way out.

Ain't my man. He's your enemy, but definitely not my man. Their idea of knocking out a little heavily armed country with an even smaller army than Iraq had, on Iraq's own turf, worked like a charm. The additional job - knocking out terrorism and terrorists - is working like a charm.

Let the cameras roll on their faces when we start pulling out and leave them to fend for themselves in the rubble we created.

We're rebuilding that rubble, remember? Even as you speak. Put down the Hooterville Hard Times Evening Edition and read MORE newspapers. Not just the headlines, but the whole thing.

But you, kind sir, have a chip on your shoulder and/or a burr up your ass that gets in the way of your thought processes. If Haliburton makes $1, you're gonna be pissed. If Haliburton LOSES $1, you're gonna be pissed. If we pay for this war, you're gonna be pissed. If we loot the place and we ALL get rich, you're gonna be pissed.

Iraq's electrical grid has increased output from 4,400 megawatts before the war to about 6,400 megawatts now, according to Brig. Gen. Thomas Bostick, the U.S. official in charge of reconstruction. An additional 700 megawatts are scheduled to come online by September, he said.
At the same time, demand has increased by 60% from prewar days, as Iraqis buy new televisions, satellite dishes, air conditioners and other appliances. Also, unscheduled maintenance saps 2,000 megawatts of power on any given day, Bostick said.
The result is frequent outages. "It's a terrible situation," said Kadhum Abbas, 42, a shopkeeper on Baghdad's Palestine Street. "Every day, we have two hours of power then four hours cut off. We spend the whole day like that."

Third World Country my ass. THEY'RE A BOOMING ECONOMY ALREADY!

On a related note, sales of Rose colored sunglasses has skyrocketed 620% since sometime in 2002.

Take 'em off, they're interfering with your reading skills.

I can't resist. I've been bashed and beaten by Old Guy over my views on Bush and Iraq. So I took the liberty of doing just what Old Guy wants-stating the facts and sources of my views.

While I was browsing through our old posts I found this by OG.
"You're feeling the emotion and forgetting the logic. Even though we have soldiers die, you can't have 9/11's happening where your kid's going to school. Even though we're spending money we don't have, if we don't fight this war we'll be living the same way most of the Third World is living because we'll be under their control."

I'll answer just as OG answers mine: There you go again, telling us how you *feel* without backing it with any facts or sources. Under their control? Bullshit. Prove it. I'll bet you a thousand American dollars we will never turn into a Third World country.

OG said: "But you're saying our military isn't killing almost exclusively terrorists, and that's a bald-faced lie."

Apparently getting numbers for the amount of terrorists is a little tough. Here's estimates for Iraqi civilians and Iraqi and coalition soldiers: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ , http://icasualties.org/oif/
Funny we hear the American soldier death count on a daily basis but never the Iraqi civilian estimates. They are all free now.

I said:"the Republicans will make DAMN SURE we are pulling out far before the next election to carefully give Americans enough time to start forgetting about it before they cast their ballots." I said *pulling out*, not *pulled out*, please try to read what I'm saying Old Guy, and spend your $1000 on a new rocking chair. We are there for life now. Damned if we leave, damned if we don't.
Rumsfeld said this:
"Coalition forces, foreign forces, are not going to repress that insurgency (they're not? That's not what Old Guy says!). We're going to create an environment (big crater would do it) that the Iraqi people and the Iraqi security forces can win against that insurgency." http://www.able2know.com/forums/about54402.html

In other words, we are going to start pulling out before the next election, and you people will have to handle it (almost) on your own. Don't put my own opinion in there? OK, let's hear what Cheney has to say:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The insurgency in Iraq is "in the last throes," Vice President Dick Cheney says, and he predicts that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office.
How Convenient.

OG said "Nobody - not even the President you hate vitriolically - said this would be pretty or easy."

While Bush may have backpeddled a lot since then, he also said things like: "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." —discussing the Iraq war with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson, as quoted by Robertson

How about Bush's infinite wisdom? Old Guy says he isn't dumb. Well, after sifting through more stupid quotes than I thought a single man could say, here are some highlights of the man OG and others have their faith in to win the war:

"This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating." —as quoted by the New York Daily News, April 23, 2002

"I'm the master of low expectations." —aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things." —aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"The CIA gave us bad intelligence."
~George W. Bush, July 11, 2003

"You see, not only did the attacks help accelerate a recession, the attacks reminded us that we are at war." —George W. Bush, on the Sept. 11 attacks, Washington, D.C., June 8, 2005

"We thought we were protected forever from trade policy or terrorist attacks because oceans protected us." —George W. Bush, speaking to business leaders at APEC Summit, Santiago, Chile, Nov. 20, 2004

"I have a record in office, as well. And all Americans have seen that record. September the 4th, 2001, I stood in the ruins of the Twin Towers. It's a day I will never forget." —George W. Bush, Marlton, New Jersey, Oct. 18, 2004

"The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein, and his willingness to terrorize himself." —Grand Rapids, Mich., Jan. 29, 2003

"The truth of that matter is, if you listen carefully, Saddam would still be in power if he were the president of the United States, and the world would be a lot better off." —George W. Bush, second presidential debate, St. Louis, Mo., Oct. 8, 2004

"I saw a poll that said the right track/wrong track in Iraq was better than here in America. It's pretty darn strong. I mean, the people see a better future." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 23, 2004

"I'm not the expert on how the Iraqi people think, because I live in America, where it's nice and safe and secure." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 23, 2004

"Had we to do it over again, we would look at the consequences of catastrophic success, being so successful so fast that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in escaped and lived to fight another day." —George W. Bush, telling Time magazine that he underestimated the Iraqi resistance

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

"I wish I wasn't the war president. Who in the heck wants to be a war president? I don't." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004

"Give me a chance to be your president and America will be safer and stronger and better." —Still-President George W. Bush, Marquette, Michigan, July 13, 2004

"I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 25, 2004

"We're still being challenged in Iraq and the reason why is a free Iraq will be a major defeat in the cause of freedom." —George W. Bush, Charlotte, N.C., April 5, 2004

"We do know that Saddam Hussein had the intent and the capabilities to cause great harm. We know he was a great danger….What we don't know yet is what we thought and what the Iraqi Survey Group has found, and we want to look at that." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C. Feb. 2, 2004

"For diplomacy to be effective, words must be credible, and no one can now doubt the word of America." —George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, Jan. 20, 2004

"I glance at the headlines just to kind of get a flavor for what's moving. I rarely read the stories, and get briefed by people who are probably read the news themselves." —Washington, D.C., Sept. 21, 2003

But what about domestic matters, Mr. President?

"We expect the states to show us whether or not we're achieving simple objectives — like literacy, literacy in math, the ability to read and write." —George W. Bush, on federal education requirements, Washington, D.C., April 28, 2005

"You work three jobs? … Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." —George W. Bush, to a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005

A very interesting timeline of quotes pertaining to the war and WMD:
http://proliberty.com/observer/20030706.htm timeline of quotes

Now Old Guy can beat me up for only showing these quotes and not others when he was reading his words from a telepromter. Oh well, over and out.

I can't resist. I've been bashed and beaten by Old Guy over my views on Bush and Iraq.

You've been bashed and beaten because you don't do your homework, and don't show your work when you do. To this day, after multiple beatings, you won't see a shred of hope for Iraq, but it's there. To this day, after multiple beatings, you won't separate your hatred for Bush from the military's overwhelming success in Iraq, but they're different. You won't hold out hope for Iraq despite your "feelings" about Bush. That, My Friend, is as selfish as humans get.

There you go again, telling us how you *feel* without backing it with any facts or sources. Under their control? Bullshit. Prove it. I'll bet you a thousand American dollars we will never turn into a Third World country.

I know, after repeatedly witnessing your loose mastery of history, that this is going to be a surprise to you, but generally when there's a war, there's a winner and a loser. The winner takes control, and the loser loses control. The winner generally gets to decide how the loser lives, eats, breaths, defecates, etc. History 101.

There's three problems with your bet:

1. Ain't looking too good so far. There may be a time in recorded history where the wholesale theft of personal property wasn't a major precursor to a country's collapse, but I sure can't think of it. There may be a time in recorded history where the wholesale restrictions on gun control wasn't a major precursor to a country's collapse, but I sure can't think of it. There may be a time in recorded history where the wholesale overtaxation of a country's citizenry wasn't a major precursor to a country's collapse, but I sure can't think of it. If you can, go for it.
   
2. If we become a Third World country, toilet paper will be more valuable than cash. And more comfortable. To ease your pain, I'll settle for $100 in toilet paper.
   
3. Not good enough? I'll take a personal check, money order, paypal, or live chickens. It was called The Great Depression. And even France "felt" sorry for us then.

Funny we hear the American soldier death count on a daily basis but never the Iraqi civilian estimates. They are all free now.

Funny? I'm not amused. The key phrase is we hear and not we read. It's been reported on iraqbodycount.net, which is over two years old. Between 22,582 and 25,590 total as of this writing. Every double-digit report I saw says "suicide car bomb", with most victims being "policemen" or "a restaurant popular with police" or "Iraqi police and civil defence forces". Here's 33 killed, "home of Hasan Bagdash, Shiite community leader" -- 33 in that one, a suicide car bomber. Guess they missed the hated Americans?

Here's a whole string of "Violent deaths recorded at provincial morgue of" whichever city. 33, 18, 27, 26, 16, 25, ad nauseum. Those must be misprints, because they didn't have a problem before we got there. And, from their website, "As noted by AP, absent from this data are records from morgues which did not participate in or respond to AP's survey — it should not therefore be considered comprehensive." In other words, it's worse than reported, and you'll probably never "hear" the whole story.

If you're not "hearing" then change the station. You whined recently about us not doing anything about the Sudanese problem. Same deal: wholesale extermination of citizens. The U.S. recorded about 100,000 traffic deaths in the same time period. Do you give a shit? Let's outlaw cars then. In summary, you won't be happy if we go to Sudan, or if we don't go to Sudan. Unless Gore or Kerry or another Democrat takes us there. For you, this is about Bush. Vietnam wasn't any prettier under Kennedy and Johnson than it was under Nixon.

The insurgency in Iraq is "in the last throes," Vice President Dick Cheney says, and he predicts that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office. How Convenient.

You already know my take on predictions: even Nostradamus was wildly inaccurate. What you quoted was a CNN article's "teaser." Read the rest of the story. The article says this:

The vice president said he expected the war would end during President Bush's second term, which ends in 2009.

"I think we may well have some kind of presence there over a period of time," Cheney said. "The level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint, I think, will clearly decline. I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."

What CNN says he said is never quoted. Anyhere. Read the article for yourself. In fact, where CNN quotes Cheney as saying "I think we may well have some kind of presence there over a period of time" negates everything the reporter implies he's saying. I'm personally hoping for an end to Iraq, but what Cheney says doesn't give me a shred of hope in that respect either. My bet still stands: Iraq will be in better shape the day Bush carries his favorite pillow out of the White House - but we'll still have troops there.

"Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." —discussing the Iraq war with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson, as quoted by Robertson

Hee! Nice try. Even worse than quoting One Single Guy who doesn't like the situation, you quote a guy whose allegations were debunked here and hundreds of other places. Credit given for semi-valid source:
DENIED!

How about Bush's infinite wisdom? Old Guy says he isn't dumb. Well, after sifting through more stupid quotes than I thought a single man could say, here are some highlights of the man OG and others have their faith in to win the war:

Once again, don't misquote me. First, Bush isn't fighting in this war. It's like the "Al Gore, Bounty Hunter" crap, where you tried vainly to convince me if Gore was in office, Osama's head would be in a dumpster somewhere. Same guys fighting the war, but you try to justify your argument with paranoid crap. Not a shred of evidence that Gore knows where Osama is, not a shred of credit to the U.S. Armed Forces for keeping Osama running for his life, just plain and simple bullshit. I have faith in our military to win this. 1,700 dead Americans including 300 from traffic and other accidents. Those are, by any stretch of the word, wildly efficient numbers. What is it, something like 300,000 American troops over there, and ONLY 300 die in accidents? That's better than civilian casualty rates in Big City America, and the military is at war!

Secondly, once again - and you can do a search - I've said Bush is a piss-poor public speaker. Don't fill up this site with idiotic Bush quotes, we'll run out of disk space. If you'd like to start another site devoted to Idiotic Presidential and Congressional Quotes, I'm your man. Save your pennies, we'll need a huge server. And permanent employees. Contact me offline. In the meantime, stay on track. This is, once again, about Iraq, not Bush.

When I posted earlier in the week about the Supreme Court ruling allowing your home to be legally stolen, you didn't have a single comment. Why? That's a huge deal. Is it because Bush doesn't have a single dog in that fight? That'd be my guess. Wanna hate the guy? Knock yourself up. But then admit it, and let's get on to other issues. We have other fish to fry, and they have just as many scales.

What this boils down to for you is Bush. Not Iraq or it's people. You said it best: if Gore was in office now, we'd have Osama by the ass. And I'm guessing Iraqis would be living in the same paradise as they were before we got there. Or we'd be there and you'd be happier because it was Gore. And we'd stop the "ethnic cleansing" in Sudan, possibly at the same time. To me, Gore and Bush are in the same category: thinly veiled lunatics willing to run for public office. Too bad you can't see or say the same. One's an idiot to you, and the other is a has-been war hero bounty hunter of terrorists to you. Great comedy, but not a valid argument per se. Overall, your replies are becoming more livid and less convincing.

At least I'm a realist. I can see progress over there, and I know the CIA, Bush, Cheney, et al were right about one thing: Iraq is filled with terrorists.

At the end of the day, despite the warts, America's still the worst country in the world except for all the others.

That's why I still live here. It's not a requirement, it's just that it sucks even worse elsewhere.

"What this boils down to for you is Bush. Not Iraq or it's people"

That's right, I despise Bush and his cronies. What it is about for me is not sending our troops, our National Guard and Reservists over there to get killed or wounded over this Administration's political agenda. We were supposed to go wipe out the Iraqi Army and Saddam and declare victory (we did), then set them up as a free country and ride off into the sunset. But I'm the stupid one for thinking it was a BAD idea. Politicians in charge of killing people is even worse than them in charge of our tax dollars, and about as effective.

OG "Nobody's forgotten Osama. You're just trying to SAY they have. We're still in Afghanistan and elsewhere, looking for him. A little-known fact is that he's hiding. Makes it tough to find the little chickenshit bastard, but at least there hasn't been another 9/11. One hour ago, this was published. I know I haven't pointed this out to you before, but the key is reading. Take it back, or I'll twist your arm. Say "Bush doesn't have to remind me every day that we're still looking for Osama." SAY IT!"

Bush doesn't have to remind me at all- "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002

OG "The CIA knew where the troublemakers were concentrated."

"The CIA gave us bad intelligence."
~George W. Bush, July 11, 2003

"First, Bush isn't fighting in this war"
Yeah, he has very little to do with it, so what the hell is my problem?

OG "What CNN says he said is never quoted"
Look again, it's plastered all over the net.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/pressingissues_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000967845
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/06/01/the_last_throes_of_truth_in_iraq/
http://206.190.35.122/s/nm/20050623/ts_nm/iraq_usa_insurgency_dc/nc:716

OG "When I posted earlier in the week about the Supreme Court ruling allowing your home to be legally stolen, you didn't have a single comment"
I did comment on the Supreme Court "Justice" Gets Kicked In The Nads"
I miss a lot of stories that are posted after I leave here and I don't always have time to get through them all.

Are we making progress? As far as rebuilding Iraq, it would be hard not to, depending on whether you call rebuilding what we wrecked in the first place "progress". I don't doubt that we are killing more than are being killed. I do believe we aren't going to "stomp out terrorism". I do believe we should have never went after Iraq in the first place, especially without the support of the UN. I do believe we burned more bridges with this than we'll ever mend. I do believe that in the aftermath, unless we keep 100,000 plus troops there, at any time Iraq could be taken back over. I do support our soldiers, who are following orders, and hope this wrecks as few of their lives as possible.

I do read your stories, sometimes I fall asleep halfway through, but I do read them. You REALLY should write a book about your life referring to it as some sort of modern day adventurist book from a guy with a colorful history. Now, I you said I was wrong about your bar story, I guess that's open for debate. Here are some clips:

"Dumb mistake #2 on his part was letting me go out the door first. You see, that gave me home field advantage"-Yep, the insurgents ended up with us over there, on their homefield, right where they want us.

"See, when you draw a line on the playground, and someone crosses that line, you better be prepared to back it up" Right. Protect America from border to border. We weren't. We trained them to fly the planes.

"He's a Dobe. They're smart enough to know where their property ends. You're OUTSIDE the car. Try getting INSIDE the car." Exactly. Let's not chase them a half a world away in a place where they will just keep coming like bees around a stick-whacked hive. We already know we can't get rid of all the bees in the world, but we can seal up our houses and get rid of the ones that make it in.

But I'm the stupid one for thinking it was a BAD idea.

I didn't say that, I've said myself it's a bad situation. But we're trying to make the best of it. If we had done nothing, what would happen then? They've gotten more brave over time, they've showed no sign of giving up, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to think they'd do it again given half the chance. Sitting on our hands got us nowhere. Before 9/11, they bombed the USS Cole on October 12, 2000. Before that, they tried to bomb the USS The Sullivans, and before that, etc. etc. etc.

At what point do you beat the shit outta the idiot causing all the trouble?

Bush doesn't have to remind me at all- "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002

So...we're NOT in Afghanistan looking for Yo' Sama? Make up my mind. Any way you slice this, Osama is effectively nullified.

OG "What CNN says he said is never quoted"
Look again, it's plastered all over the net.

What you quoted was in only one article, published by CNN. Here's what you said, cut and pasted:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The insurgency in Iraq is "in the last throes," Vice President Dick Cheney says, and he predicts that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office.
How Convenient.

Don't tell me you didn't get it from that page, because it's the exact wording. This is why I tell you to provide links. And, like I said, the reporter's "teaser" isn't Cheney's quote. In fact, only those four words are in quotes. I searched for what you gave me, and found the ONLY news hit right here. There's 187 sites on the net that point to that same one article. The rest are right here. No other article points to what you're referring as a quote, and here's why: if it ain't in quotes, it's not a quote. If you find it elsewhere, take my repeated advice and post the link! I've questioned authority as long as I can remember, and that includes newspapers, radio, tv, etc.

I did comment on the Supreme Court "Justice" Gets Kicked In The Nads"

Once again, your reading skills and browser failed you. That's not the story I mentioned or linked.

Are we making progress? As far as rebuilding Iraq, it would be hard not to, depending on whether you call rebuilding what we wrecked in the first place "progress". I don't doubt that we are killing more than are being killed. I do believe we aren't going to "stomp out terrorism". I do believe we should have never went after Iraq in the first place, especially without the support of the UN. I do believe we burned more bridges with this than we'll ever mend. I do believe that in the aftermath, unless we keep 100,000 plus troops there, at any time Iraq could be taken back over. I do support our soldiers, who are following orders, and hope this wrecks as few of their lives as possible.

Close enough to an admission of success. Finally. Thanks.

Yep, the insurgents ended up with us over there, on their homefield, right where they want us.

That's in a later chapter. The previous chapter is where they flew into the World Trade Center.

Right. Protect America from border to border. We weren't. We trained them to fly the planes.

Into buildings?

Exactly. Let's not chase them a half a world away in a place where they will just keep coming like bees around a stick-whacked hive. We already know we can't get rid of all the bees in the world, but we can seal up our houses and get rid of the ones that make it in.

They had a bee in their bonnets on 9/11. That was too far, too much hate, and the wrong target. If you have termites under your house, you better get them before they get you.

I'll listen to you if you have, or had, a better plan except for sitting on our hands. That was tried for years and didn't work worth a shit.

We'll settle it when we have pulled out most of our troops. You and I will take a vaction over there and see how many suitcases we come back in.

I hate McDonald's, but I'll buy.