for da Mrs.! Well said! hip hip...emmm horahhh!

"all Christians are self-righteous hypocrits"...where?

Most of the people I mentioned are Christians of the non-hypocritical variety.

No, you didn't say "all Christians are...", I was just making a point that "all are not..."

Irony- the perception that things are not what they are said to be or what they seem.

Hypocrisy- Saying one thing but acting or thinking in a contradictory manner.

I made the connection all on my own :)

--
MrsOldGuy
"He is alive, but only in the sense that he can't be legally buried."
--Geoffrey Madan

On the dividing the big pot thing:
Do you know any of those people? Seriously. The only people I even know *of* who are like that are some communists, and I mean real "live in a commune" communists.

On the sitting on one's ass forever thing:
Once again, where are these people? You know welfare programs are temporary, right? I'll assume you're using the word "forever" loosely.

On the majority rules thing:
This ain't a direct democracy. You know better. Sometimes the courts have to overrule the majority. The words "majority rule" and "Alabama" in the same paragraph is damn close to pissing on the whole civil rights movement.

On the government/courts/religion thing:
People have different standards as to what constitutes "establishment." That one's never going to be settled.

On the gun thing:
I worry about the anti-gun people about as much as I worry about getting eaten by the Loch Ness Monster. But please, go on. Seriously.

On the veggie oil diesel thing:
My wife already did it to her car. It works pretty well.

On the oil thing:
Every effort should be made to purchase oil from non-Arab sources. Divorce proceedings should be put in motion immediately. Canada, Venezuela and Alaska are the future of oil production. Don't forget biodiesel, ethanol, and refineries that can turn American coal into oil. It won't be a quick process, so it needs to start *now*, but it's not going to when the industry lobbyists are helping write federal energy policy.

On the Social Security thing:
You're going to need to rethink your majority rule thing if you want to get rid of SS. And cut the liberal media bullshit.

On the fascist countries thing:
All of your examples were very non-religious, and therefore not good examples. Regarding socialist republics: right - attempts at pure socialism will always fail. As will attempts at pure capitalism. And yes, I mean that about capitalism. Every successful capitalist nation has elements of socialism. Some favor people more, other favor business more, some favor the individual more, while others favor the collective more. In general, the people decide what kind of system they want.

On the mead thing:
Coconut mead - never thought of that.

On third-world orphans:
I'm no elitist. I'm a populist.

On the organ thing:
Well, that remark was inevitable. I knew it. And who are these gay extremists? I know of some "straight" extremists, but have never encountered a gay extremist. BTW, I suspect most of those "straight" extremists secretly like dick.

On the hypocrisy thing:
Eh. I enjoy pointing out hypocrisy. Sue me. There's just such an abundance of material.

On the stuff being wrong with Christianity thing:
As I already told the Mrs, most of these people *are* Christians. And they're cool by me.

On the "Jennifer" thing:
What I should have explained is that she doubts her faith, admits it, and that sort of intellectual honesty is worthy of respect. Despite your assumptions, she's quite stable and will probably figure it out. Likewise, I respect those who are honest about their faith.

On how hard it is to believe that Democrats work and go to church:
Care to elaborate? Every one of them that I know does work, and most go to church.

On the origin of the Bill:
I know. I've been getting it emailed to me at approximately 6-month intervals for years. It's divisive and poorly-written propaganda. It would be more interesting if there were more elements of plausibility.

On whether I missed the whole point of the Bible:
No. Did you?

That's enough for now. I have a videoconference scheduled with my liberal friends - they want some help finalizing the agenda on how to take away all your rights, your property, and turn your kids gay.

I can take it.
You know you want to say something...let it flow...like The Force thru a Jedi...

Do you know any of those people? Seriously.

People that want the pot divided equally? Sure! I know tons of 'em. I've heard them expound at great length on the subject. I've got four kids in, and one finished with, public school - a small town school, no less - and the subject has come up repeatedly. Every time, it's been an idea planted from either a teacher, or a misled family member. My sister, in fact, thinks the "rich" should pay a higher proportion of taxes than the "middle class." That's plain ol' horseshit. Two nights ago, a 16 year old relative was here with her solution to the world's ills. When that subject came up, I asked her if everybody should be paid the same. Of course they should. So I asked if she'd rather work as an MD for 80 hours a week, or a gas station attendant for 40 hours a week. She knew I had her, and didn't answer. Sorry, but if somebody feels the calling to cure humans, I say it's a little more of a noble gesture than your average cashier, and should be rewarded as such.

Once again, where are these people? You know welfare programs are temporary, right? I'll assume you're using the word "forever" loosely.

Allegedly temporary. There are extensions, and they're not rare by any means. And there's still abuse. I've commented before about the woman who paid for *most* of her groceries with food stamps, and I paid for the rest. She was driving a new Firebird that looked like it had been spit-shined. Her kids looked like they hadn't seen a spit-shine in a month. She was married, and her husband had a job. Like I've said before, there have been reforms, but not enough. When those "helpless victims" of the upper class found out there were time limits, an amazing number of them found jobs and are self-sufficient now. I'll admit I had some guilt feelings when that legislation passed, but there weren't people lying dead in the streets afterwards either. A Democrat President signed that legislation that was penned by a Republican Congress, and only ones who opposed it looked like fools - and they were mostly Democrats. There were heroes from both parties involved, so don't go there. :) I know the difference between a new Firebird and a used Volkswagen: the cost of groceries.

The words "majority rule" and "Alabama" in the same paragraph is damn close to pissing on the whole civil rights movement.

I'm not so sure. There's an Unsilent Minority that screams the loudest. All kinds of people are horrified by our history of slavery, including most people I've met from the South. In the two years I drove a truck, I heard the "N" word alot, mostly in the Northeast. Go figger. That certainly wasn't the perception I'd been raised with. That's a whole 'nother story in itself. Like I said, if the majority of the citizens of Alabama want the Ten Commandments in their courthouse, then it stays. It's not up to the courts. Period! Like Reagan said, vote with your feet. If you're so horrified by the Ten Commandments in the courthouse when you pick up your license plates, then pack up and git. Somewhere there's another city, county, state, or country that'll fill your desires.

And while we're on civil rights, there was only one thing that stood between Gore and the White House when I pulled the lever. I easily got past the "I invented the Internet" crap, but saying his dad was a champion of civil rights was *the* biggest sore spot I've ever had during an election. His dad *hated* non-whites and it was no secret. But some people believed him, and those same people most likely believe Bush is a racist. All you have to do is look at Bush's cabinet to know that can't *possibly* be true. Bush would make up something for an excuse and just be done with it. Powell and Rice wouldn't be anywhere near the place. I prefer to hate Bush for other reasons, namely Big Government, deficit spending, lack of border control (still), etc. But to say he's against the poor after record-breaking entitlement spending, and to say he's a racist, is bullshit. Same thing with Clinton. I loved the guy for signing welfare reform, and hated his guts when he lied to a grand jury. This ain't party politics to me, folks. I've never even heard of a President I liked 100%, and I'm not disillusioning myself that it'll ever happen. I already have a love/hate relationship with the next one.

People have different standards as to what constitutes "establishment." That one's never going to be settled.

Agreed. The most "anti-establishment" guy I know from the 70's now sells insurance. Whoda thunk it?

I worry about the anti-gun people about as much as I worry about getting eaten by the Loch Ness Monster. But please, go on. Seriously.

Me too, but only because I can shoot back. Don't forget there was an "assault weapon ban" in effect that didn't quite cover what Joe Public would consider an assault weapon. The problem is you and I know what an assault weapon is, but Joe Public puts a little too much trust in the anti-gunners. It didn't clean up the streets, and it never will. Neither did Prohibition. Neither did the War On (Some) Drugs. Ever hear of a guy smoking a joint in his living room, then killing his wife in a drug-induced rage? Me neither. Prozac, yes. So why aren't the Prozac users in prison? Because Logic and Legislation have rarely met.

My wife already did it to her car. It works pretty well.

Nice! She's my hero now.

It won't be a quick process, so it needs to start *now*, but it's not going to when the industry lobbyists are helping write federal energy policy.

Right, but that's a bipartisan issue too, don't forget. Big Ketchup ain't no different than Big Oil, and I'd rather do without ketchup than transportation. And they have started. General Motors has an entire building that runs on fuel cell technology. Chrysler took a fuel cell car on a coast-coast trip, and had, if I remember correctly, no trouble with the fuel cell technology. I think they had a problem with ... some kind of suspension part? Can't remember. But as of now, nobody's gonna buy a fuel cell car. They're not cheap enough. Hey, I'm all for the Jetson's, but the price has to come down. It'll get there. What doesn't help is when "experts" keep up that BS lie about the car that gets 200 MPG. It never happened, but the myth has helped feed a hatred of oil companies for a long time. There's always the other side of the story, which is that oil is such a bargain because of the oil companies that Americans can drive anywhere they want to go anytime they wanna go there. I've known people that wouldn't walk across the street if they could get a cab. We say we don't want to use oil, but we're not forcing anything by any stretch. Fuel consumption hasn't cut down noticeably even though the price has skyrocketed. Net effect: we're all just bitching about the price. Every time consumers vote with their wallets, they get what they want. We're not pissed about the environment, or the supply - or we'd all boycott. Oil's convenient, and we're lazy. Run your car through the crusher and get a bike. Convince every American to do likewise. Those lobbyists will drop their notebooks in an instant, and scribble out a retooling finance package for the automakers and oil companies on a napkin before martini #1 is finished.

You're going to need to rethink your majority rule thing if you want to get rid of SS. And cut the liberal media bullshit.

I'd put that up for a vote. Few people refuse to invest in a 401k or similar if given the option. It beats the shit outta SS. The idea that was proposed was giving people the choice, but it wasn't portrayed that way in the media. It was portrayed as Dear Old Granny living on no retirement, and that was a lie. I want the choice. I've got cash money that says you'd pick the same. If we're going to be anti-big government, then let's do it. They can't pave roads, and I don't want 'em running my retirement fund. The SS package is so shitty that your elected officials have their own plan. If that's not an obvious enough clue for America, then they're gonna be eating dog food in their Golden Retriever years. SS is a Ponzi scheme, and it's tanking. My "public servants" aren't relying on it. Why should I be forced to rely on it?

In general, the people decide what kind of system they want.

In general, the people decide what to watch on TV. In general, I think most people just throw up their hands because they "know" they're powerless against "them" - the people who make the laws. Relatively few people even show up to vote. I'd bet the most common phrase in America after a discussion on changing the system is "what can you do?" Most of us pick up the remote control and fuggedabout.

Coconut mead - never thought of that.

I did, for a horrifying 9 seconds. You can have mine, I'll take anything else.

I'm no elitist. I'm a populist.

A populist, as in democratic principles? There's nothing more democratic than working for a living.

know of some "straight" extremists, but have never encountered a gay extremist. BTW, I suspect most of those "straight" extremists secretly like dick.

I've met both kinds. I like my dick, but it's no secret.

Eh. I enjoy pointing out hypocrisy. Sue me. There's just such an abundance of material.

Oh yeah. The fun never ends there. It's been an endless topic of conversation on here too.

As I already told the Mrs, most of these people *are* Christians. And they're cool by me.

Me too. Same for Muslims, Jews, Catholics, whatever trips your trigger. The basics are in all of 'em, but people get wrapped up in the brand preferences, and that's just messed up. I did my own little investigation, I came to my own conclusions, and until evidence shows otherwise I'll stay the same. The ones that ridicule my choice are the ones that need to rethink it. The Mrs. opened my eyes about faith. Basically she points to everything and says it's all here for us to enjoy. That was *SO* simple I'd never caught a glimpse of it in all my years of analysis and blatant rejection. I can't say I didn't believe in God, but I can say I fought the belief with every ounce of logic in me. Logically, how can it make sense? But pick a fruit or veggie, and pick it off the vine. Not from the store, from the vine. Shut everything else out - work, money, friends, enemas, web sites :) - and completely erase your mind. Now, bite into it. Did you feel that? If not, repeat as necessary. Something is "there", but we tend to filter "it" out. I say it's God. Your mileage may vary.

What I should have explained is that she doubts her faith, admits it, and that sort of intellectual honesty is worthy of respect. Despite your assumptions, she's quite stable and will probably figure it out. Likewise, I respect those who are honest about their faith.

Ah, that's a different picture altogether. Doubting your faith is normal, I'd think. It's called faith for a reason. Good luck to her. Just pass the hint along to avoid rice cakes.

On how hard it is to believe that Democrats work and go to church: Care to elaborate? Every one of them that I know does work, and most go to church.

That's what I was saying. They're playing the same game the Republicans are, same rat race, same hopes, etc. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. It kinda saddens me, actually, that we have two parties. If either side had a shred of Constitutional knowledge I think they'd both be ashamed of where they stand. You could rid the law shelves of 99.44% of every piece of legislation ever passed and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference how Real America lives, works, and plays. As it stands now, it seems there's more willingness to pick a side, regardless of how bastardized it is, and stick with it to the bitter end. It's just tug-of-war.

On the origin of the Bill: I know. I've been getting it emailed to me at approximately 6-month intervals for years. It's divisive and poorly-written propaganda. It would be more interesting if there were more elements of plausibility.

I put it up because it amused me. There's also a shred of truth in it. You kill me, I'll kill you right back! It's just as funny as the joke about why Baptists don't have sex standing up: because they don't want anybody to think they're dancing. ba-boom-TISH! P.S. I don't buy that one wholesale either.

On whether I missed the whole point of the Bible: No. Did you?

The first time I read it, I was pretty young - 12. Yeah, I missed the point then for sure. When I first read it, it looked like a list of forbidden things. Somehow, through that filtering we do, it often gets turned around into things like no drinking, sex is only for procreation and only the missionary position is acceptable, Jesus loves you and is going to kill you if you don't knock off yer shit, no dancing, just an endless list of idiotic restrictions. No wonder it gets a bad rap.

After rereading, it's a whole 'nother deal. It doesn't say don't drink, it says don't overdo it. Jesus turned water into wine. There are skeptics, but it was talked about far and wide by witnesses. What Jesus didn't do after turning water into wine was puke on the carpet and beat the shit out of his wife.

No sex? Bullshit. Read the Song of Solomon. I've been an aficionado of different forms of eroticism, and that one turned my face red when I reread it without all the background noise from "normal" life. Are you supposed to have sex? You betcha! All you want! But not with everybody. Pick one, just in case you have kids, etc. Otherwise, you end up with a bunch of kids running around without their daddies. Sure, you can raise kids without a father figure around, but it's harder on the kids. And the number one reason in my book: you have earth-shattering sex with someone you know. If that wasn't true, people would always masturbate with someone else's hand.

Do you have to go to a church of organized religion? Not as far as I can tell. And Jesus said go into a closet and pray. Church is where you're standing or sitting or laying. My Dear Old Grandmother often gave me a hard time about not going to church. The only time I had anything significant to reply was the one time when I told her I was in church every day in my own head, not just on Sundays. She looked like a fish out of water with her mouth opening and closing repeatedly.

Money is the root of all evil? Bullshit. The love of money is the root of all evil. It's just money. So how come we haven't all won Powerball? Because God helps those that help theirselves. If your heart is truly intending to help others, then the money will follow. Look at Bill Gates. Nice guy, despite the shitty computer operating system. Microsoft may suck, but it allowed for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which is A-OK by me. Go Bill and Melinda! And they're perfect examples - and certainly not the only ones - of the lie that the rich are selfish. Sometimes they are. Sometimes the poor are selfish too. You rarely see two Wall Street types fighting over a refrigerator box "home" in an alley.

I've been through alot since that first reading, and I've let most of it sink in now. The Holy Bible is the greatest motivational seminar ever given, not a list of restrictions. It's a blueprint for personal success, not a warning of fire and brimstone. I had a "personal experience" about five years ago. Long story. Bring the mead, you're gonna need it - I sure will to get the story out. I guarantee that you won't be half as shocked as I was.

That's enough for now. I have a videoconference scheduled with my liberal friends - they want some help finalizing the agenda on how to take away all your rights, your property, and turn your kids gay.

Probably the same friends I have, or reasonable facsimiles thereof. I keep telling them it won't work. They listen about as well as the conservative friends I have. When they show up for tea, both sides are amazed that I was talking about dumping it in the harbor.

"They" will take away my rights upon death, and not a second before. If they're adamant about it, I'll take a few with me, regardless of party affiliation. My kids are all turning out heterosexual without any coaching. All four boys, including the seven year old, have been witnessed by me admiring the opposite sex on multiple occasions. The only girl, despite her subtlety, has been guilty of the same. But their choice is theirs, and theirs alone. I don't think coercion will have any impact.

Do you have an opinion on this matter? Go ahead share it, don't be afraid.

No, I'm rarely opinionated.

I was pressed for time, I'll try to make it up to ya later. How about three next time as a warm-up?